The acoustical challenge is really for the musicians, right?.

I understand, and we have to take care of that. But in the process of doing so, we’ve also got an opportunity to turn this into a scenic or a media hall. You’ve got an awful lot of theatrical stuff available to the May Festival and the symphony, because it has to be there for the opera and the ballet. Maybe we ought to think about using it from time to time. It would be great if we all had enough money to have on staff a full time scenic designer and a multi media designer to figure out how to make these things a little more visual. There’s got to be a commitment to it, and this is our chance to do that. I mean, hell, we’re redoing the whole place.

Max Rudolf and Erich Kunzel in the 70’s developed this separate, Pops model that does some of the things that you’re talking about.

Far more visual, yeah.

And more interactive.

Yes, absolutely.

And the conductor is…

A personality.

So, if that’s the case, does there need to be more of a bleeding across the lines, or does there really even need to be a separate brand, per se, Pops vs. CSO?

We are seriously looking at that. First of all, the reason for the two brands is based on recording contracts and a lot of things that don’t exist anymore. The model which was based primarily on movie scores and Broadway is tired. The ability for any leader to be able to program and then conduct all of the different genres that are out there within the pops format – it’s just not possible.

I think it would be far better to mix up all the programs and not make the distinction between two different brands. The original thought was, if you’re not terribly sophisticated, go to the pops and maybe you’ll see the light and come over to classics. That didn’t work. Everybody thought there was going to be all this crossover, but there’s no crossover. In the process I think we cemented even stronger the elitist image of the classics. We’ve got enough elitism in other areas of our lives; we don’t need it in the arts.

What it’s is going to take is getting beyond the realm of speculation and intellectual talk, and actually doing something about it. In that regard I’m not sure why the CSO, as we reformat the music experience, couldn’t be leading the charge. Nobody else is; everybody is paralyzed. You can’t have an institution that’s been around for 100 plus years that doesn’t have a little bit of paralysis. Because we are searching for leaders for each group AND we are redoing the hall, AND in the revitalized Over-the-Rhine, this is the perfect chance to do it. Had Erich just died and Paavo’s contract was picked up for another ten years, we would not be having the same discussion. Or, if Erich had not died and Paavo had moved on, we would not be having this discussion.

It’s really a unique time – no question.

And that’s kind of cool. That’s why I got interested; it’s entrepreneurial again. But I think here you get that whole disconnect between entrepreneurial thinking and institutional mindset. That’s hard to break down because you’ve got all these “yes, buts” – “Yes, but we’re gonna lose our old audience.” To which my flip response is – they’re gonna die anyway. We all are. Better get the new ones in.

What do you think the CSO’s role should be, not only in the programming of new music, but in the creation and the commissioning – the spurring on of new music?

I think as you ask that, you’ve got to ask: who are we creating and spurring on for? You know, every music director has said: “Part of my job is to acquaint audiences with new music and broaden their perspective on music too.” That rests on the core assumption that you have an audience. It would be great to make audiences more aware of music, but make sure you’ve got an audience there and a base point to start.

You’ve got to be very clear with your audience that “tonight’s program is commissioned works.” If you hate music that doesn’t have a tonal center, if you don’t like music that has no melody, don’t come. We have to be very clear in our marketing about what’s going on because if you’re a new audience member and, you go to one of these new commissioned works, one that’s off the chart out there in the future somewhere – and it’s your first experience – you’re never going back. I think we’ve got to not only market to target audiences, but make sure we tell them what’s going on that night.

You assume that when somebody sees the ad in the paper or hears the program that they know what you’re talking about. The average person doesn’t know the difference between Britten and Brahms. I think we’ve got to educate them. So yeah, I think there probably is a role there to foster new music. But I think it’s got to be done with an understanding of how you’re gonna get the audience to accept that.

Cincinnati Opera, for example…the one thing they’ve really tried to work on is to establish a brand that’s independent of the artistic leader. They established a brand and then hired somebody – Evans Mirageas – to facilitate that brand. What do you think about the pros and cons of establishing a brand and then finding someone to fit it?

I think that’s absolutely essential. I think we in Cincinnati, like everybody else, did it to ourselves. Yes, it was Cincinnati Pops, but it was really Erich Kunzel. I had a session a couple of Saturdays ago with an amazing turnout on a rainy Saturday in the morning. These were the Friends of the Pops, who I thought would have been worshipping at the throne of Erich and – almost to a person – they were saying the Pops needs a new identity, we were too long personality driven. The downside of this is that it overshadowed the orchestra.

Anyway yeah, I think it should be the Cincinnati orchestra – that’s the brand. Notice I omitted “symphony.” The Cincinnati orchestra is the brand.

How does this affect programming? Where does that come from?

Traditionally it’s come from the music director. Those days are over. I think. I think they should be over, because it assumes that one person can understand audiences that are coming and audiences that aren’t coming enough to program stuff that’s gonna keep the institution viable both artistically and financially. This is not a slam at Paavo or anybody else. Nobody, no one person has that capability. I don’t care who the hell they are.

I think programming decisions should include somebody who is in the visual arts: scenic design, multimedia design… It also needs to include people who understand marketing and brand and consumers. I can be considerably disdainful of reading the future tea leaf stuff, i.e. market research. On the other hand, without it you just keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

So I think you need people involved in putting together the season who understand a lot of different aspects of why people are and aren’t coming. And again I don’t think it’s one person. Is it what we now call a music director? No. Is it Trey’s position? (Devey, CSO President) No. It can’t be one person.

In business, it would generally be the marketing director…

In the real world.

In the corporate world.

That may be why they make a profit. Did you ever think that if we were a little more market driven we might be profitable? Does that mean you have just bastardized the art? I don’t think so.

I wrote a piece last year about the importance of brand integrity in the arts…

I think it’s huge.

Several people contacted me to say: “But this is art, you can’t treat it like a product.” What’s your reaction to that?

That’s just insane. Brand is not a logo or image or anything like that. It’s about understanding how consumers relate to it; that’s what we’re lacking. Gets back to what I was saying about leisure time…we’re not going to be on the radar screen for leisure time and disposable income if we can’t demonstrate that there’s a fundamental meaningful need that we’re filling. That’s why I think it immediately ties in with the family experiences.

What families are looking for now are meaningful leisure time experiences. It’s why theme parks, the theme park industry is not doing well. Those are mindless activities. What the museum world learned from theme parks is that there are some techniques in the entertainment business that help make your exhibition a little more appealing…blah blah blah.

What a great opportunity we have! Music, supposedly the universal language, if we all remember that. It can appeal across generations. it can be consumed in a short period of time. If we could start to meet some of these leisure time needs of the consumer. And without even mentioning the word Beethoven because that’s where we get tripped up. What are we going to program…? No, no, no, no. Rather, how are we gonna get them in the door, which may involve programming. It’s just such a great time to be doing this. I can get excited about this or ride my motorcycle I’d rather get excited about this right now.

Last question: So let’s say they decided to appoint you…

This outta be good.

Let’s say they appoint you overall artistic director of Cincinnati “orchestra.” What steps would you implement at this point in time?

I think the first one is to try to understand what is the best process and who are the best players for determining each season. I have already said I think you need to have somebody visual involved. And I think it needs to involve both marketing, and obviously, the artistic piece of what they’re doing.

I never worked for P&G, but I suspect the folks in R&D sort of think they are the artists, and those guys over in marketing are gonna screw it up because they’re gonna put some populist logo all over their creation. There’s a lesson there you know. Eventually they all come together and they create a product that sells. I’m sort of intrigued…if nonprofit ever became profitable, if enough people really cared about what we do. I’d start with programming which also means… Inherent in that is having somebody who understands why people aren’t coming.

As long as we keep looking at it as an art problem – as opposed to a leisure time opportunity – I think we’re in bad, bad shape. •